Fight Club

[Satyr]

Has anyone seen the movie and, the ones that have, what message do you think the movie transmitted?

I happen to think it was full of Nietzschean undertones, and this forum is but a representation of the same exact process, allegorically depicted in the movie, happening in real time in the real world.

[Onasander]

It was okay. Talked about more than it deserves, if Brad Pitt wasn't beating people up in it, I don't think anyone would of noticed it anywhere near this scale.

[Satyr]

Did you duck or was that over your head?

[gla22]

Nietzsche talked about the state being the new idol after the death of God, what determines values and morality. Fight Club does the same thing for identity that Nietzsche does for values. In both cases there is rampant nihilism in response to the situations. The generation x/y and generations to come have an identity crisis. This is because old means of forming an identity have lost their force or no longer exist. These are; nationalism, religion, wars, large social movements ect. These have been replaced with people trying to find identity through consumerism,

what dining set defines me as a person?

. ~Fight Club
Brand name clothing is another example of this, people create identity on the products they buy. "I drive audis, I wear armani suits, I drink absolut vodka, i smoke marlboros" This is what fight club exposes as a shallow and pathetic means of finding identity. Today I see the new "hipster" phase as a reaction against the consumerism of the 90's but the identity problem is still the same. Instead of buying their identity they find it in obscure bands and thrift stores.

Some main points they have in common is:
A materialistic view of the universe
Anti-history. They are both against the dialectic.
Tyler Durden creates his values and implements them. He could be an ubermensch, he certainly isn't human, but it is unsure if his values are due to reaction.
Both life affirming philosophies. We see this ALOT in fight club, the gas station attendant, fight club itself, ect.

[Satyr]

Better.

Some more points.

The fact that the main hero has to become schizophrenic is an indication that a man must divide his identity in order to preserve the parts which are considered undesirable by the system.

Is it not, also, important to note that in the movie those that are "freed" from the hum-drum, repressed, artificial world, and are then allowed to express their manhood secretly in these primitive battles, then display this inability to actually be free?

And this connects us to Nietzsche and these forums dedicated to him and the many Nietzsche admirers, part of this secret army of hypothetical "free-spirits".

Does not the propensity of a mind to attach to power promising liberty to then express its inability to be free, in that it can only be free through another or guided by another?

Is it not important to note that those worshiping the man who wrote Twilight of the Idols have now made an idol of him, just as those freed from the system's lies, in the movie, could only repeat their new leader's words, worship him, like he was a messiah, and become automatons in a different system?

[Onasander]

didn't go over my head, was a bad movie first and foremost. Sorry, sometimes art just blows, despite the time and effort put into it. The deposition of the highly integrated and culturally uniform, egalitarian tong cells didn't make a whole lotta sense to me in regards to reaping a psychological profit. The took up the form of cock fights and underground movements in this movie without asking how it actually works. That's why there isn't any real number of fightclubs out there beyond the drunken fraternity thinking it's cool to emulate. The closest thing you will find is commercialized and heavily regulated, and if you asked them what denomination they were in, more often than not they would give you a name. We used to send a lot of guys to the AFC in the military, their training and recruitment was encouraged not just on base, but out in town among the civilians. Fightclub just couldn't be in the US on any large scale or permanence in the manner depicted on the movie (did not read the book).

Now the Vatican, that's a different story.

[Satyr]

Cool, now answer the fuckin' damn question.

Have you ever stumbled upon a den of Nietzsche wannabes, pretending they are some prophets of the coming of the overman, that you cannot see yourself in the image of the idiots that lined up outside the main heroes rundown doorway, trying to be one of the army of righteousness?

Here you are a bunch of dimwitted imbeciles, quoting Nietzsche to no end, like those members of that secret fight-club were reciting their hero's words, pretending to be anything but imbeciles following a new leader, chanting different religious prayers, quoting from different scripture and pretending to be special.

Still nothing huh?
All over your head, then.

Who, the fuck, are you people, and what makes you think you are any different than those Christians congregating in Christian forums, reciting from the Bible and using Jesus as their icon?

Do you think of yourself as different, as distinct?
Have you not replaced the icon of Jesus with Nietzsche and the overman with a saint?

The deniers of icons, worshiping an icon...how pathetic are you lot.

Did any of you understand a word that was spoken in Nietzsche's text or does it only constitute an emblem, an icon, of your freedom from cultural norms?
Does any of you fucks understand that amorality is an absurdity, that amorality is a moral stance?

Did any of you dumb fucks not read Heidegger and realize that caring is a part of living, to whatever degree, and that caring was the root of all moral feeling?

Do any of you complacent, stupid, fucks realize how sheepish you all are, even while pretending to be above the flock?

Douchebags, do any of you realize why he associated himself with Jesus, why he had warm feelings towards Socrates, even while criticizing both, and why he hugged that damned horse before his final collapse, or are all of you more refined imbeciles, trying to feel special and part of a more unique herd?

Do any of you realize what Zarathustra living in a cave meant, or what the wandered allegory signified?
Do any of you sorry fucks realize that by pretending to be a part of this community you are contradicting the very essence of Nietzsche's message?

Many of you have read books, including his, have any of you truly understood them?

[gla22]

I am not sure if you realize Satyr that just because this is a Nietzsche discussion forum that dosen't mean we worship him. His philosophy and his writings have been criticized on this board quite extensively. The purpose of this board is to help each other "better understand" Nietzsche and his writings rather than "worship" him. That being said many of the members have a deep admiration for the man but that does not entail "being a sheep."

And what makes you think you are any different than those Christians congregating in Christian forums, reciting from the Bible and using Jesus as their icon?

How many Christians criticize Christ?

Does any of you fucks understand that amorality is an absurdity, that amorality is a moral stance?

Who said anything about practicing amorality? certainly not Nietzsche.

There are plenty of threads expressing criticism.

http://www.nietzscheforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=333&p=2535#p2535
http://www.nietzscheforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=331
http://www.nietzscheforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=142

[Satyr]

Then I exclude those that manage to read a thinker and still maintain their intellectual independence.
i was inspired to post this after my experience with a certain Nietzsche obsessed automaton from Amsterdam, calling himself Sauwelios.

Perhaps he is a member in this forum.

This feminized mind started a forum, like this one, dedicated exclusively to Nietzsche and all things Nietzsche.

Then he estalbished a hierarchy, from initiate to master, where certain sub-forums were reserved for the special few, like a cult, and where access to these secret sanctuaries of obsessive weakness, they, I suppose, indulged in religious-like rituals, of chanting Nietzsche quotes, constantly debating what the scripture said, safely tucked away from criticism and reality.

These idiots, are actually convinced that they are doing Nietzsche's work, as Christians think they are doing God's work, and Sauwelios even admits that he chooses to be a follower of Nietzsche, rather than a follower of Satyr (this is I), as he put it, presumably failing to consider any possibility where he is not a follower.

A herd instinct, for example, cannot imagine itself outside the herd. If it is not this herd, then it must be that one...but a herd must be had.

The idea that he should be a follower of nobody, including his new idol, is one he cannot even conceptualize...yet he thinks of himself as a "free-spirit"....one of the anointed ones, a master of ceremony, a high priest of Nietzschean, post-modernity.

Is this not what happened with Jesus?
Did he not preach agaisnt organized religion, saying that God is accessible to all, everywhere?
Were not his words then taken, by Paul, and made into the antithesis of everything he said?

When God is killed then, for the many weaklings that come to be in a world that depends on weakness to function, find it difficult to deal with the void...the Sartrean terror of free-will.

They rush, just as those freed from bourgeois lifestyles in the movie, to a new leader, a messiah, a new idol.
This is usually not noticed, as a Christian becoming Muslim or a Scientologist, does not constitute a dramatic change.
But it does become obvious and pathetic, when these sheeple run towards an idol that condemns all idols as demeaning or when they run and follow, creating a church, around a person that damns all churches to hell.

The irony here is palatable.
In the movie Fight Club , the main character shoots himself, or the part of himself that denies the world of men, when his minions, contrary to his desires, blow up the infrastructure of lies that bound them to their society.

The schizophrenic, parasitic part of himself is made unnecessary and he realizes that not all men can be freed.
Some, when their chains are cut, run to the nearest barn and tie themselves up again.

The wilds are not for everyone, and not all can live in a cave, isolated and alone, content in distinction, or as a wanderer outside the walls.

[War God]

Then I exclude those that manage to read a thinker and still maintain their intellectual independence.
i was inspired to post this after my experience with a certain Nietzsche obsessed automaton from Amsterdam, calling himself Sauwelios.

Perhaps he is a member in this forum.

You have such bad memory, "Satyr". First of all, you came to me when you'd been kicked off ILP for manifesting yourself in a solely negative way there. You asked me if I knew any other fora. I told you I frequented this forum then, but that you probably wouldn't be interest due to its limited focus. You signed up anyway, and the first thing you did was turn on me (where formerly, on ILP, our relations had been friendly). What the fuck.

This feminized mind started a forum, like this one, dedicated exclusively to Nietzsche and all things Nietzsche.

Then he estalbished a hierarchy,

Wrong: the fundamental conception of that forum is the Nietzschean concept of Order of Rank.

from initiate to master, where certain sub-forums were reserved for the special few, like a cult, and where access to these secret sanctuaries of obsessive weakness, they, I suppose, indulged in religious-like rituals, of chanting Nietzsche quotes, constantly debating what the scripture said, safely tucked away from criticism and reality.

From hoi polloi, you moron.

Why keep bugging a relative exception like me? (I say "keep bugging" because after I'd told you I wasn't interested in this discussion here on the Nietzsche Forum, you still signed up for my Nietzsche Pyramid where you did the exact same thing: immediately turn on me.) Are there not many more much less independent minds than I out there for you to harass? But the question is its own answer: you find me much more interesting than those many; or, put differently, it's much more fun for you to pick on me instead of them. This in itself serves to confirm my relative exceptionality, my relative independence... Perhaps you follow the principle of "what doesn't kill me [me, in this case] makes me stronger"? It's certain that you have a negative effect on me; perhaps that is a challenge, a test? All that proves anything is whether I'll perish or not. I am forced to draw from the very power you dismiss, the power of illusion... You have not understood Nietzsche at all (or perhaps you just disagree with him?) if you think life is possible without delusion. In fact, the will to power is the will to delusion! It is love, eros, the force of life, the force of light...

These idiots, are actually convinced that they are doing Nietzsche's work, as Christians think they are doing God's work, and Sauwelios even admits that he chooses to be a follower of Nietzsche, rather than a follower of Satyr (this is I), as he put it, presumably failing to consider any possibility where he is not a follower.

I acknowledge Nietzsche as my intellectual superior (unlike you). You are not a star, you are a black hole. I found you impressive until I found that, besides the intellectual destructiveness, there's little to nothing there.

A herd instinct, for example, cannot imagine itself outside the herd. If it is not this herd, then it must be that one...but a herd must be had.

Do you agree with your friend Aidan McLaren that wolves, too, are sheep?

The idea that he should be a follower of nobody, including his new idol, is one he cannot even conceptualize...yet he thinks of himself as a "free-spirit"....

I have never fashioned myself as a "free spirit"; that's your favourite phrase.

one of the anointed ones, a master of ceremony, a high priest of Nietzschean, post-modernity.

Is this not what happened with Jesus?
Did he not preach agaisnt organized religion, saying that God is accessible to all, everywhere?
Were not his words then taken, by Paul, and made into the antithesis of everything he said?

When God is killed then, for the many weaklings that come to be in a world that depends on weakness to function, find it difficult to deal with the void...the Sartrean terror of free-will.

They rush, just as those freed from bourgeois lifestyles in the movie, to a new leader, a messiah, a new idol.
This is usually not noticed, as a Christian becoming Muslim or a Scientologist, does not constitute a dramatic change.
But it does become obvious and pathetic, when these sheeple run towards an idol that condemns all idols as demeaning or when they run and follow, creating a church, around a person that damns all churches to hell.

The irony here is palatable.
In the movie Fight Club , the main character shoots himself, or the part of himself that denies the world of men, when his minions, contrary to his desires, blow up the infrastructure of lies that bound them to their society.

The schizophrenic, parasitic part of himself is made unnecessary and he realizes that not all men can be freed.
Some, when their chains are cut, run to the nearest barn and tie themselves up again.

The wilds are not for everyone, and not all can live in a cave, isolated and alone, content in distinction, or as a wanderer outside the walls.

I'm sure that's why you come to me asking if I know a city that will let you in the moment you've been banished from another...

Also, does not seeing any walls around you mean you're outside all walls? In my view, in that case you're more deeply imprisoned than those who do see the walls around them.

I embrace my walls, my horizons. This is my city, my state, my polis. I am political.

Philosophers are unrealistic because their self-knowledge is political. This self-knowledge blinds them to life's nihilism. Philosophy springs from common sense or what Nietzsche, more nihilistically, called the herd instinct. The herd instinct's essence is its being common or communal, an instinct which makes political sense out of life. This instinct inspires the faith that one has an identity distinguishing one from other things in a universe shared with them. It creates the illusion that reality is a coherent, intelligible world, not merely a chaos of empty reveries or experiences.
[Harry Neumann, Liberalism, chapter 1.]